My son Jeremy and I recently went to the gun club to some additional water jug penetration tests, using the .338 Federal, .350 Remington mag and the beloved 45-70.
Our tests on the 45-70 consisted of two loads from Buffalo Bore Ammunition. The first load we tested was the 405 grain JFN at around 2000 fps. Let me repeat the parameters of our testing here. We test bullet penetration and expansion in one gallon water filled milk jugs with caps screwed on tight. The jugs are placed tight up against each other in a straight line on 2x4's nailed together sitting on sawhorses. All shots are at 25 feet from the muzzle.
** The 405 grain load (known as the "expander") did just that. It walloped the first 4 jugs exploding them and landed neatly in the bottom of the 5th jug. I was suprised to learn that there was complete separation of the jacket and core (see video and photos).
Second up was the 350 grain JFN at 2150 fps and this load is called the "penetrator". This load also lived up to its namesake and is the #1 penetrating load we have tested this far in several rifles, incluidng the .308 Win, the 30:06 using 180 grain accubonds, the .338 Federal using 210 grain Nosler Partitions and the excellent 200 grain Federal Fusion load, and the .350 Remington Mag using 200 grain corelokts.
The 350 grain JFP, blew up the first 5 jugs, and then went on to penetrate 5 more and ended up in the bottom of the 10th jug perfectly expanded and totally intact (core and jacket held together in a classic mushroom).
I was surprised by the lack of penetration and the jacket and core separation on the 405 grain load as I was planning on using that load in the fall of 2010 on a bear hunt my son and I are going on. On the other hand, the wallop shown in the video for this load is awsome. I wrote to Buffalo Bore Ammunition and received a very promt and knowledgeable reply back from Tom Sundles by email.
The 405 grain load is his PERSONAL choice and recommendation for both black bear and hog hunting. It is designed to penetrate apprx 2 1/2 feet into tissue with violent expansion. Numerous black bears have been taken with this load with ZERO reports of failure in hundreds of thousands of rounds sold.
The 350 grain JFN penetrator on the other hand is designed to penetrate approximately FOUR FEET into living tissue. The best loads we have tested up to this point in time were the 180 grain accubond in the 30:06 and the 210 grain Partition in the .338 Federal, both of which were in the 6th or 7th jug category, with classic mushroom expansion and bullets that held together in the water jug medium.
I have on hand some 350 grain Corbon JFN ammo for the 45-70 also and hope to get back to the range for penetration test for that load also.
There are a lot of excellent loads out there that will turn your 45-70 into a fire breathing monster. Time and cost of factory ammunition prevents me from testing them all, at least for now.
Other loads that have excellent reputations are the Garrett hammerheads in various weights and configurations and also the afore mentioned CorBon loads.
NONE of these are cheap, however neither is a guided hunt for the BIG beasty stuff. $3 or $4 per round is very cheap insurance, when what you are hunting can eat you if your bullet fails. My dream hunt of a lifetime is to go after Alaskan Coastal Brown Bear. Will it ever happen? I don't know, however I will hold onto the dream for now.
In closing, if you want an education from the man who has been there, please visit Garrett Ammunition's website (http://.garrettcartridges.com/new.1.asp.
Take the time to read about the effect of "meplat" disameters on 45-70 bullets. Garrett amunition boasts the widest meplats in the industry, and he has to my knowledge the widest selection of both .44 mag and 45-70 loads in the industry. One can learn about pushing the 45-70 loads to over 1600 feet per second actually REDUCES penetration and why. You will learn that, " the wound channel disameter is far more a product of meplat diameter than actual bullet diameter, impact-effect can be considerably enhanced through the use of bullets with wider than normal meplats" (quotation from the page on 45-70 PLUS-P, Hammerhead ammo).
You will learn Randy's ammo for the 45-70 is capable of shooting lengthwise through the heaviest game while providing rapid incapacitation.
If I were leaving for my Alaskan brown bear dream hunt next year, instead of a baited black bear hunt in Maine and I were taking my 45-70, I would certainly be on the phone with Randy Garrett for his recommendation before I left. At the time of this post his 45-70 ammo runs $80 for a box of 20, which means every time you pop a cap, you are looking at $4.00. Again, it is cheap insurance when a brown bear hunt can cost one upwards of $15-25,000 depending on accomodations, specific outfitter etc.
Dan
2 Thessalonians 2:16, 17: "Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work"
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4 comments:
I'm confused why you choose water to determine penetrating power of munitions. Water is a highly uncompressible liquid, and as such exerts far more resistance to high velocity rounds regardless of their weight. For example, a water jug will destroy a fast moving .308 round where it would otherwise allow a .45 ACP to pass through it. Your "exploding" jugs is evidence of this property, as most if not all of the energy is stopped at the first point of impact. I suggest you compare your tests to pistol caliber rounds and witness for yourself that your tests are fundamentally flawed and give you no insight on actual penetration. A bullet traveling through water is not the same as a bullet that can effectively destroy bone, muscle, cartilage and tissue without stopping.
Snowman, thanks for visiting the blog and thanks for your comments. I will reprint here my original tesing "parameters" as input on my original post on 7/7/09 when we started water jug testing:
"Why water jugs for testing? Fair question - I have done a lot of reading on various test mediums including 10% ballistic gelatin, wet newspapers, wet telephone books, various blocks of wood such as 4X4 posts 1 foot long, and even the latest ballistic gelatin in a special tube. I have even read of tests over the years using a side of beef, including hide, bones etc.
I came to the conclusion that absolutely NONE of the test mediums EXACTLY duplicate what a given bullet will do when striking a live animal, especially a black bear or a larger brown bear etc. Since it is impossible to duplicate the penetration and expansion that might take place in a given big game animal by the above testing methods, I opted to do my testing in water jugs. The medium is INexpensive to use, is very consistent, and in most cases you will find your expanded bullet sitting nicely in the bottom of one of the gallon jugs, so you can examine it after the shot. Somewhere between labeling a given caliber and bullet as a good black or brown bear bullet (vs.) that all I am really proving is that a 45-70 as an example will KILL more water jugs that a .308, hopefully we can learn something from the testing"
In closing, I am NOT trying to re-invent the wheel or am I trying to indicate that X number of water jugs doth a good bear bullet make.
I am for the most part, having a good time and having fun blowing up water filled jugs. On the other hand, in the case of the 45-70 and the Buffalo Bore bullets, I think the water jugs validate that their 350 grain penetrator load is just that, and their 405 grain JFP expander is just what they say it is.
We have enough real world evidence by guys who have taken more big game animals that I will ever likely see, that calibers like the .338 Mag, .375 H&H, and the 45-70 properly loaded make a pretty good starting place for a rifle for a brown bear hunt. We also know that most guys use successfully their favortie deer rifle for black bear hunting over bait.
I think we can draw some conclusions from water jug testing, however again I am not trying to sell anything nor do I take a given test result too serious.
Again, THANKS for reading the blog and I appreciate your comments. Dan
Maybe the issue lies with settling with one medium to fire at in any particular instance. You're right: living animals are not entirely made of water, or wood, or steel. They are a composite. Since you're attempted to judge the effectiveness of ammunition for game, perhaps the best situation would be to develop this same composite that reflects real-world hunting. For instance, a thin layer of carpet for the skin, a bone-like material, like particle board, then finally your water jugs. I would have to put more thought into the actual thicknesses and even the material choices, but at the end of the day you'd have a better result.
Snowman - Again thanks for your input. The medium you suggest sounds similar to Sam Falada's "Bullet Box". If memory serves me, I think he built a box that has a piece of plywood up front, followed by water ballons, followed by modeling clay.
He has done a lot of testing, especially in the muzzleloader projectile arena. He has also done a fair amount of testing on the 45-70 using Garrett Hammerhead loads.
I like your suggestion and the Lord willing and I find the time, perhaps my son and I can do a few videos with the type of medium you suggest.
My personal feeling is that all the testing done by individuals like you, and myself, the major bullet co's, and yes, even live game animals being shot under all sorts of variable circumstances become part of the puzzle of bullet performance.
I say parts of the puzzle since even documentation of game taken, is only part of the puzzle since there are just too many variable's.
We have to consider the range at which the shot was taken, the temperature, the shot placement, whether the animal was already spooked and full of adrenalin or quietly feeding and unaware of the hunter's presence etc. etc.
For example I have NEVER shot a brown bear, or a cape buffalo, elephant etc., however I have read dozens of stories about how much lead one of these animals can soak up if the first bullet isn't placed correctly. I watched a lot of dangerous game being taken on videos and always try to make mental notes of the caliber, load, shot placement etc.
I don't feel any one individual has shot enough game animals to make hard, fast conclusive decisions about a given caliber and bullet under various field conditions.
That being said, we can certainly make recommendations about a caliber and bullet in general for whitetails, black bear, brown bear etc. Those recommendations are made from the sheer amount of game taken under a wide variety of field conditions, and the extensive testing done by bullet manufactuers, sports writers, and we have an idea of what works and what doesn't.
I value your input and hopefully when the weather breaks in NY, we can do some addl videos on different mediums, your's included.
By the way, where are you from?, and would appreciate any input you have from real world game animals taken, what calibers you used, what bullet weight etc. and the results of the shot.
I think it would interesting to form a data base on the water jug testing and then duplicate the tests using a medium such as you suggest and then try and draw some conclusions from that testing.
Maybe a pattern would start to reveal itself such as X# of water jugs penetrated seems to co-relate to a certain penetrations depth in a different medium.
Perhaps NOT, but it is always fun to do more shooting and to hear about other's experiences.
Dan
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